RACING or FREESTYLE

[EdCFP]

Monster trucks have gained fame and fortune because of several reasons but it is apparent that today Freestyle like yesteryear when monsters crushed cars is the most crowds favorite part of the show.

Why not a SERIES that awards their Championship Points only for Freestyle?
That does not mean who can wreck it the worst
Something like taking off points for a rollover or ripping off wheels.

More of a drivers award for putting on a great show while getting the crowd involved.

That would lend itself to safer shows with maybe more put into a vehicle to excite and entertain the crowd.

Two motors? Fire out the headers? Cylops eye in the hood? Jimmy Jacks water shoot from Reptoid, stuff like that would take place of all these trucks being tore all the heck.

Just my thoughts.....yours?

Ed Beckley
Checkered Flag Productions
www.cfpracing.com

[72ZEBRA]

As a fan Ed I like the idea of making freestyle show drivers talent, not just how much he can afford to tear up. Rollover is a DNF, Break and cannot finish the time allowed is a DNF! Drivers will still take it to the edge, but hopefully they will try to finish on thier wheels and put on a much safer show. I know the younger crowd wont like that, but thats my opinion. With a point system the guys like Bill Payne will still come out on top at the end of the year, even with DNFs. It will just make the scoring close.

Now to the other point, I would like to see more of the speciall attractions. Bring out the oddball stuff during intermissions. A tank, the stunt man stuff or something along that line. Heck even the comedy stuff like Dirty Dingus is a good filler and keeps the fans laughing.

Ive been to more than a few of your shows over the years Ed and I think the best ones had Mudbogs. The crowd really likes seeing the local boys get out there and get muddy. Tough trucks is an easy sell also. One show I really like is the lawnmower racing!! That is fun to watch and it seems the crowd agreed with me at the shows Ive seen.

And for me, truck/tractor pulling. Its a natural that monsters should have pulling too, but I dont know if the rest of the crowd agrees with me on that one.

Thats my thoughts Ed! See ya soon!!

[Firehawk85]

While this all sounds like a good idea I disagree with deducting points for a wheel breaking off unless it starts happening all the time like rollovers do in Monster Jam.

What I would like to see is a racing series that is set up like the NHRA Drag Racing. What I mean is differant classes such as...

Race Trucks like the ones that run now.

leaf spring trucks like the good ol days in the late 80s

48" tire trucks......etc

I'd also like to see some pulling and mud bogging again by the monster trucks.

thoughts??

as far as freestyle....the majority rules imo.

[adamsoffroad]

While this all sounds like a good idea I disagree with deducting points for a wheel breaking off unless it starts happening all the time like rollovers do in Monster Jam.

What I would like to see is a racing series that is set up like the NHRA Drag Racing. What I mean is differant classes such as...

Race Trucks like the ones that run now.

leaf spring trucks like the good ol days in the late 80s

48" tire trucks......etc

I'd also like to see some pulling and mud bogging again by the monster trucks.

thoughts??

as far as freestyle....the majority rules imo.
I say x2

[gmtgmt]

I say x2

I say x3

i would ship my truck to the states and race if there become a racing series!

[Don]

I have to agree with you on this one Ed.
If the drivers that are winning freestyle for crashing now are so good then they should be able to control the truck enough to push it to the edge and come back and drive away. I thing most of them can put rolling is the easy way to win with out talent.
He is a post of mine from a few months back.

Why do we reward failure and thoughts on the back flip.
I figured with all the back flip talk about where the sport is headed I would start a new post as to not change the direction of the post about the back flip attempt being made in CA.

First off we are the only judged sport involving freestyle that I can think of that rewards failure. What I mean is if someone crashes in all other freestyle judging formats they are guaranteed there not going to win or place in the completion. Look at any other motorsport of athletic sport where there is freestyle and you are deducted for crashing and rewarded for pulling off the spectacular. I think if we were like other sports it would be a great change in the way we are perceived where intentional crashing is now expected by some teams and other teams are not able to do so. If we were only judged on what we were able to intentionally do and drive away and deducted for failure the completion between all teams would be more equal and separate the talented driver from the I'm going to do something stupid and hang on drivers. I'm not going to point fingers as several of the get stupid drivers often win racing showcasing there talents and several always go out in early rounds proving my point. I think there should be a 10 point deduction out of 30. I'm not saying it would ever be accepted but it's more of a food for though comment it this time.

I would like to see anyone name a judged sport other than monster trucks that rewards failure. I remember the first back flip in Freestyle Jetski completion seemed very possible but several attempts with failure were great to watch but did not take the win in till someone rode away.

As for my view on the back flip I'm sitting with the guys that view it as a flop in the air and crashing onto the wheels. It's impressive but there not continuing on or landing in a new place like a down ramp. As for where it may take the sport I look at it as one of those moves you can go ahead and try but if you fail you should not be rewarded. Have fun loading your wadded up junk. I prefer it as a stunt more than a move in completion.

Having said that I think there is a way a guy could land on a down ramp and make a smooth rotation. We were going to try some other extreme stuff that no other team has considered and it led us to thinking of a new way to make it work. Will we try it? The first part was in a failed planning attempt because of time restrictions. Will we try again? Probably in a year from now if the money and exposure are great enough. Will it be at a show? Not in the regular monster truck atmosphere as we know shows. In fact it will not likely be open to a paying crowd but that may change. All I can say is that if it happens it will be off the charts wild and consist of allot more than just a one hit wonder and it will have a very special ramp as well. Time will tell.
Don

[theace27]

"Race Trucks like the ones that run now.

leaf spring trucks like the good ol days in the late 80s

48" tire trucks......etc

I'd also like to see some pulling and mud bogging again by the monster trucks."


I say x4!!! I also like Jim's ideas for scoring in Freestlye. A roll over is a DNF!!!!

[Paul curtis]

I miss going to events with both monsters and pulling, as for the different classes of trucks, meh, I dont think theres enuff leafers to do that, and most of the others are Trucks Gone Wild type trucks, not sure if we want to go down that road.

now, that being said, I think you could do some great filler stuff with one or two leaf trucks between rounds

[gmtgmt]

I miss going to events with both monsters and pulling, as for the different classes of trucks, meh, I dont think theres enuff leafers to do that, and most of the others are Trucks Gone Wild type trucks, not sure if we want to go down that road.

now, that being said, I think you could do some great filler stuff with one or two leaf trucks between rounds

Yeap i dont want to see tgw style trucks or events that more or less being turned into those kind

but there are more then enought leafers out there that still can do shows but its the owners thats proberly the problem as many has full time jobs or just not up for this anymore

[BiteMeStudios]

Ed, my thoughts on this are:

1) A set time has to be established in order to fairly judge freestyle. Lets say, for this post, that is two minutes.

2) As much as crowd participation is an integral part of today's shows, it is that very crowd participation that makes freestyle something that can't be made into a points series. You can't rely on an 8 year old girl who doesn't want to hurt a driver's feelings, or a 10 year old who likes that truck because it looks like "Monster Jam Truck X", or a 14 year old boy who votes for the lady driver just because he thinks she is hot. I have seen freestyle judging be spot on, but more often than not, I see little kids get it COMPLETELY wrong. "I don't like orange trucks" is not a valid reason to throw up a 5 on a freestyle that truly EARNED an 8 or a 9. This has to be figured out, and, honestly, I don't have a good solution for this.

3) I like the way you guys choose your freestyle order. Reverse order of racing finish is a perfect, non-biased way to do it. Keep that.

4) Taking off points for breaking/rolling, to me, is a great idea. While some drivers may take that as their excuse to dog it, this will be balanced out by low scores. Those truly wishing to win a points championship will push it to the edge. Plus, boring trucks don't get booked again. The key to this is having a set deduction for not filling the clock...like say breaking/rolling in the first :30 is -5, from :31 to 1:00 is -3, and from 1:00 to 1:59 is -1 (assuming a two minute structure). The rules CAN'T be subjective...only the judging.

5) The rules have to be announced and stuck with throughout the season. The crowd needs this explained to them at EVERY venue before freestyle starts. I saw a crowd get hostile at an event earlier this year because they were used to seeing trucks roll over and keep going. The rules changed (in my opinion, for the better), but the problem was that no one bothered to tell the crowd this. The crowd was upset...a huge, angry thread started here...all because of a lack of 30 seconds of explaining how it works to the crowd.

6) Originality in trucks is a great thing. If you want to encourage the best looking/wildest looking/most original truck designs, maybe have a separate judging during introductions. The winner of the "style contest" gets points added to their freestyle...or something like that.

Basically, I echo the sentiment of many racing fans with my take on freestyle. I like the competition to be as legitimate as possible. Freestyle is always going to be subjective...which is why it is often called "monster truck gymnastics". That is fine, and a little debate at the end of a show is fun and healthy. But, when it is blatantly obvious that the kids judging got it totally wrong, it just looks bad on the show and has even killed the mood in some cases I have seen.

On another, unrelated note...

Guys, leaf springs KILL backs and neck. I love the old days, but for the love of god, quit requesting a leafer series. Those things are the reason a lot of guys we used to know and love aren't running anymore. Mark Wheeler is crippled, Jim Kramer has a terrible shoulder, Dennis Anderson runs a bare bones schedule, and I am sure there are countless others that I haven't heard the story of. You guys are basically requesting unbearable abuse of drivers, and that scares and offends me.

[TheMonsterBlogger]

The best championship format for a series like CFP is one that tests driver skill in both, awarding points for racing and freestyle. I think dropping racing from the events would make them, and the championship overall much less interesting, rather than more. I think being a champion of a series that equally rewards racing and freestyle carries a higher esteem than being a champion simply of racing or freestyle.

Speaking more about the industry in general...

I feel that the common perception that fans will automatically like freestyle more than like racing is somewhat incorrect. When all of the promotion and excitement building during the event is done featuring freestyle, then yeah, fans are going to be more excited about it. Nearly all shows these days seem to be run with the attitude, "Yeah, we've got a wheelie contest and racing as filler, BUT THEN LATER COMES FREESTYLE!!!!!!!" That same attitude is used in building the race courses - "Let's build a wild freestyle track and then we'll fit a race course in there somewhere" and "don't make the race course too tough, we've got to make sure all the trucks are still running for freestyle".

That format works great for shows in general and is more appropriate for many venues, but you can't use that as proof that more fans like freestyle than they do racing. When equal or greater focus is put on racing and a great, intricate track is built that truly tests the trucks and driver skill, I will argue that fans get just as excited for racing as they do for freestyle, if not more so. I cite as proof any of the MLMT or MTC races I have attended, where the cheering is much louder and the excitement level much higher during racing than it is during freestyle. I would also note that at many of these events, the crowd tends to shrink after racing is completed. Personally, I would take a racing-geared course like MTC Charlotte '09 over ANY freestyle-geared course.

Another thing people say when making the freestyle is more popular argument is that it's what the AVERAGE fan wants. I would argue that the AVERAGE fan (the fan that doesn't follow monster trucks any more than attending their local show they saw a commercial for) doesn't have a defined preference. They are coming to see monster trucks, period. Their decision to attend isn't based on what the monster trucks will be doing at the show, it's based simply on seeing monster trucks. That's why they are the AVERAGE fan, they are going to get more excited over whatever you pump up more and put more effort on at your show. Now, beyond that you will have those who prefer racing or those who prefer freestyle. And while I would agree that more of those fans with a preference would choose freestyle, I would further argue the reason for that is they have never been to an event that puts an equal amount of effort and focus on racing and freestyle.

Freestyle-only events aren't new. If some promoter out there is looking to try something different, I would love to see a racing only show tried (and I'm not talking about straight-line racing only like ProMT). Book some of the top racers, and use all of your space to build a wild racing course. Use buses, vans, whatever space will allow and make a LONG turning course that allows time for trucks to make up ground if they make a mistake. Use a double elimination bracket to allow for second chances and to have enough racing to fill out an event.

Open qualifying would be great, but is probably unrealistic because of this industry's long established practice of show up fees and the greater cost. So alternatively, you adjust your booking pay scale such that there is a lower base fee and the more you passes you make, the more money you make. You might think that teams would altogether say no to this, but if you think about it...they can either get X dollars for Show A and have to run their truck in wheelie, racing AND freestyle contests....OR get a smaller base fee for Show B but only have to run the truck for a minimum of three passes (qualifying, and two racing losses) WITH the potential to make more money in Show B than in Show A if they have a good night.

I'll put my racing only show (this format with my specifications above has never been tried) up against any freestyle only show (KSR, Outlaw, WGAS, all do this regularly, MJ is moving towards it) and I bet you mine turns out to be just as, if not more, exciting. :D

[tromoly]

Ed, you have a great start going there, with how you're presenting it I feel that it would work out really really well, and with what's been said in a little time there can be some rock solid freestyle-only events.


Guys, leaf springs KILL backs and neck. I love the old days, but for the love of god, quit requesting a leafer series. Those things are the reason a lot of guys we used to know and love aren't running anymore. Mark Wheeler is crippled, Jim Kramer has a terrible shoulder, Dennis Anderson runs a bare bones schedule, and I am sure there are countless others that I haven't heard the story of. You guys are basically requesting unbearable abuse of drivers, and that scares and offends me.

I agree with what you've said in reference to 80s leafer technology; I do have other comments on it, but I'll save it for another day to keep this thread on topic ;)

[TheMonsterBlogger]

As far as freestyle judging goes, I agree with most of Colby's points. I would however like to add a few thoughts:

"2) As much as crowd participation is an integral part of today's shows, it is that very crowd participation that makes freestyle something that can't be made into a points series. You can't rely on an 8 year old girl who doesn't want to hurt a driver's feelings, or a 10 year old who likes that truck because it looks like "Monster Jam Truck X", or a 14 year old boy who votes for the lady driver just because he thinks she is hot. I have seen freestyle judging be spot on, but more often than not, I see little kids get it COMPLETELY wrong. "I don't like orange trucks" is not a valid reason to throw up a 5 on a freestyle that truly EARNED an 8 or a 9. This has to be figured out, and, honestly, I don't have a good solution for this."

Letting three people from the crowd judge freestyle as fan participation simply cannot have a greater positive effect than the negative effect that occurs when they vote for their favorite truck and de-legitimize the whole competition. I realize that it is unrealistic to have a panel of expert judges score the event, but even just having the event director assign scores is preferable to fan judging.

"3) I like the way you guys choose your freestyle order. Reverse order of racing finish is a perfect, non-biased way to do it. Keep that."

I've seen this at a few shows, but most shows including CFP's do tend to stick to a pre-defined order. This should be a standard, in my opinion. Going later in freestyle does carry an advantage, so make them earn it. It also encourages freestyle-focused drivers to run harder in racing.

6) Originality in trucks is a great thing. If you want to encourage the best looking/wildest looking/most original truck designs, maybe have a separate judging during introductions. The winner of the "style contest" gets points added to their freestyle...or something like that.

I like originality in trucks too, and that certainly would be a factor in me booking a lineup if I was a promoter. But I don't care if the best freestyle comes from a plain white truck bodied monster, the winner shouldn't be decided in any way, no matter how small, based on the way the truck looks.

[BiteMeStudios]

It is a "FREESTYLE" competition. Would not using a flame thrower on your truck...or a water cannon on your truck...or hydraulic body panels...or a scantily-clad attractive woman...be but yet another "trick" for freestyle? (Note to the admins: use of the word trick might not be the best in light of the mention of hot women...please know that was not my intention) Stop on top of the bus stack, and have a huge fireworks show light off from the bed of your truck. Why not? It is, after all, freestyle...ANYTHING GOES! Honestly, I thought Drew Haygood's inclusion of dream catchers on the back of his truck was but a small piece of what has been missing in this sport since 1989...individuality. (No, NOT leaf springs...:D)

Yes, safety would still have to take precedence, but I figured that was a foregone conclusion.

[Tim Dudley]

Hey Ed,

I love racing, but I hate to say it. But I think Freestyle is bigger than the racing anymore. Because any "promoter" show I go to I hear. I wonder what freestyle objects they have.

I say keep the Racing and Freestyle. Now there is one thing I would love to see bring some of the old 80s Style shows back!

Like time event they go down strait away turn and go over set of cars where sled pulling is. Throw some hills in there. Do ole 80s style with a new twist with freestyle at the end.

If I had time and money, I would try throw a show together like that call it "We Love The 80s" (With a twist). Or something like that. LOL

Your friend,
Tim Dudley

[Firehawk85]

Guys, leaf springs KILL backs and neck. I love the old days, but for the love of god, quit requesting a leafer series. Those things are the reason a lot of guys we used to know and love aren't running anymore. Mark Wheeler is crippled, Jim Kramer has a terrible shoulder, Dennis Anderson runs a bare bones schedule, and I am sure there are countless others that I haven't heard the story of. You guys are basically requesting unbearable abuse of drivers, and that scares and offends me.

Nothing in my post was ment to scare or offend anyone but the monster truck industry now has become a mockery of itself. WWF monster truck style sucks.

Besides that I'm sure there are plenty of guys that would be more than willing to drive a leafer truck.......


I guess I'd be happy with a racing series like TNT Monster Truck Challenge 1988-1990. But something DEFINATELY needs to CHANGE!!

[MasterofTame]

I have seen a lot of posts some I agree with like Ross's and Colby's and some I disagree with in certain situations like bringing all the stuff like mud bogs and tractor and truck pulling back into the fold and awarding DNFs for rolling and breaking while others I disagree entirely like having a whole for separate division for different sized or shock-types trucks.

Adding truck and tractor pulling and mud bogs back to monster jams, monster truck challenge what have you: I agree that I would like to see it BUT I went to the Glendale Monster Jam last month, that was about one and 1/2 hour of straight racing and then nearly another hour of straight freestyle. That's already a 2 & 1/2 hour show without adding quad wars, trophy cars and UTV racing. From about 6:00 pm you had some sort of action on the track besides the 15/20 minute intermission to prep for freestyle. I feel that was more than enough time for a show. Adding mud bogs and tractor pulls each add another hour or so per division WITHOUT taking into consideration pull-offs. I doubt there are enough people who wants to relive the days of the 8 hour Astrodome TNT Super Nationals to make it profitable for a company to actually run one.

Awarding DNF's: I feel USHRA has it right with their current scoring BESIDES using fans to score. They don't give you a DNF par-say BUT if you flip in 5 seconds or break a wheel off in that same time, you won't get the full points. I do think they need to give a finite amount of time including one last stunt if you are not able to slow down enough for a safe stop in the time. And if you want to give an encore, do it AFTER all the trucks finish and the winner is crowned like the old days. On the fan judging, there have been good fan judging and bad fan judging times I've gone but even the Olympics and the X-Games have been criticized for their fair judging.

Divisions of trucks: It's enough with the regular tube-framed fiberglass bodied monster trucks. If anything I'd hope to see a 48-inch division but I've seen the one tube-framed 48 incher in Raptor and now that was sold off and no longer used. Personally dividing monster trucks into stocks and all that will dry up the talent pool of drivers on the independent level.


Hey Ed,

I love racing, but I hate to say it. But I think Freestyle is bigger than the racing anymore. Because any "promoter" show I go to I hear. I wonder what freestyle objects they have.

I say keep the Racing and Freestyle. Now there is one thing I would love to see bring some of the old 80s Style shows back!

Like time event they go down strait away turn and go over set of cars where sled pulling is. Throw some hills in there. Do ole 80s style with a new twist with freestyle at the end.

If I had time and money, I would try throw a show together like that call it "We Love The 80s" (With a twist). Or something like that. LOL

Your friend,
Tim Dudley

Tim, I loved the post and sadly I do agree that at least on Monster Jams and the CFP shows I've seen through TMBtv, freestyle is more important than racing. I grew up a racing fan as they were starting the TNT point series the year after I was born and now I'm following just about any motor sport that is racing centered.

However this thread has been an awesome thought provoking one that I have enjoyed reading and figuring out what to say in response to it.

[BiteMeStudios]

On the fan judging, there have been good fan judging and bad fan judging times I've gone but even the Olympics and the X-Games have been criticized for their fair judging.

Point taken, but how ofter do Olympic Judges (a panel of experts) or X Games judges (a panel of experts) get it wrong compared to monster truck freestyle judges (a panel of bed wetters)? I can go back through the events I have been to and probably half of them I can argue, with a strong case, that the judges got freestyle wrong.

Ed's original idea here was a points series for freestyle. I love the idea...so long as steps are taken to get it right. Basing a point championship in our sport on the biased, ill-informed thoughts of a 9 year old child does not appeal to me in any way, shape or form. Now, in a non-points situation...as most shows exist today...I love the idea of having kids make the call. That, however, is not what is being discussed here.

[stormrider_67]

Bingo Colby... let the kids decide on non-point events. I too am all for fan interaction but when it comes to something this serious, it should be left to a non-biased judge.

A points system should be in place for racing, no questions. Freestyle should be handled similarly.

I was thinking something along the lines of pre-scored tricks. Example: slap wheelie is 10 points, sky wheelie is 15 and so on. Have a benchmark for each trick and add the totals. Then, for things you can't really score because of variables or frequency (like big air, something you can't measure officially), have a 5 point max. My point is, getting in 5 sick air moves yielding 25 points should not be as highly regarded as 2 sweet slap wheelies.

I dunno, its an idea. Maybe someone can expand on my thoughts and make it better.

[graveyard314]

just want to throw my two cents in here, sorry if i say something that others disagree with, but thats what opinions are:
i would really love to see something similar to what mr. beckley has mentioned here. a freestyle only show that actually leads to an official points champion with maybe a purse involved somewhere in there as well. the real one thing im going to have to very very slightly disagree with is the deduction of points for a roll/major visible breakage, and im saying this from both a fan's perspective as well as a business perspective in a way. now, when a typical fan (those who are not fully active members of this community, or those who do not know much about the industry other than one show a year or television) typically tend to enjoy the "destruction" aspect of a show. even i find myself (not often) getting a small thrill from a roll or a wheel breaking off. what i would suggest should this idea of a series ever be implemented, is to certainly not add points fora getting a little stupid, but get the crowd excited about it (should something violent happen, never prior to the fact) while still maintaining the points that run would have recevied at this point prior to the wreck or breakage. this way (again, only should something happen, not saying it would every show) the destruction loving crowd wouldnt be angry at the promotion for penalizing someone for their favorite part of the show, and people like most of us here would say that the score was fair.
just something that entered my mind, sorry for rambling on there but i wanted to attempt to get a point across there.

[fastj14]

I like Ross' ideas the most. After watching the monster blogs coverage from Charlotte this year and just about every other MTC and MLMT show for that matter, a challenging, long tight race course is the way to go. I mean you have freestyle like obstacles to race over which provide the big air and the close calls that the fans like to see. And you still have the drivers driving their guts out trying to win at the same time.

[Bad Habit]

Freestyle points series???!! Sign me up!!!

[Cale Putnam]

I remember Ed posted a similar idea several years back and it got shot down, I am VERY glad to see more people like it this time. I agree that quality of judging is key to it working, I would suggest that "in the know" fans could be culled from various places (some message board named "Monster Mayhem" might be a good spot for this), and used as such.

Really, the FS only format is going to become de rigeur for arena shows in the next few years (see: MJ Freestyle Mania format), so it's a good deal to get some real competition out of it.

[Destroyerfan]

As far as freestyle scoring, i say they should choose 5 fans from the crowd and throw out the high and low scores for a top score of thirty, like they've done in the past. Maybe its just me, but i'm still trying to figure out how the whole bonus time deal works, it must be just like how the first 30 seconds work, the better you do in the bonus .30 the more points you get out of the 5 possible? If thats the case then why not just let them go 2 full minutes and do a possible score of 40 like at the world finals many moons ago?

Again, to me, and i've said this before, there is too much emphasis on freestyle now. What i think this sport really needs is more emphasis on racing and less on freestyle now. A points series like TNT would be great right now. I don't really know what happened to the points series' that they had. In 2000, they had points set up for racing and freestyle and it was the same in 2001 and 2002. If it worked once, i don't understand why it wont work now.

[MasterofTame]

I personally think for Monster Jam's arena shows it should cycle between Freestyle Mania one year and Thunder Nationals the next year or vice-versa. Personally giving the same area the same shows year after year gets boring which was why I liked seeing the different tracks from USHRA over the last few years.

I will say that after watching MLMT and Monster Truck Challenge videos(via The Monster Blog) on YouTube, I like it. It gives freestyle obstacles that for the most part don't stick out like sore thumbs during the racing portions. I think it's anyone's guess why Feld hasn't tried that out yet.

[Randy Barton BUGZILLA MT]

I didn`t read all of the posts, but MTC did it the way it should be done, Hands Down!
Monster trucks have evolved into big baja cars now, and should be raced as such, on "giant motorcross" style tracks with cars and busses thrown in.
Now dont get me wrong, I like freestlye, but I am a racer at heart!
I guess what I`m trying to say is that if every course was as great as MTC`s past race, I could care less about freestyle :)
Randy

[71m07hySm17h]

The only way I could see FS as being judged fairly is by going completely the opposite route of subjectivity. Make it like Freestyle MX, given points for specific moves, how long they last, and certain areas of maximization. For example; a truck wheelies down the track and is given a score of 500 for the wheelie, and depending upon the amount of seconds it is on two back wheels is multiplied by the time it was up. A 2.3 second wheelie would be worth 1150 points. A save, depending upon perhaps the angle, or maybe the time taken during the save would be worth 2000 points maybe? I'm coming up with this on the fly because I think it's the only way FS can be 'judged properly'.

My reason for doing so is this: There can be no fair freestyle judging when subjectivity is in play. People will always form some sort of favoritism, factionalism, or dislike for some truck for some reason. In motorsports, subjectivity is usually the place of controversy, and while in some cases controversy is good for advertising and promotional purposes, creating factions between trucks, teams, and fans is really not what 'the industry' needs, I believe. I know the way I described is similar to a game of sorts but really, what else is there? If the current way is working so perfectly then why do people complain of it so consistently? Just giving my two cents on the issue and hopefully a flame war does not commence *crosses fingers*.

I'll always take racing over freestyle but I understand and sympathize with those who enjoy freestyle better. More fans means more fun.

[Tim Dudley]

Tim,

You hit good point. There is freestyles I've seen on TV and on here that should not have won but did because of their name. Good example is the year in world finals when Dennis even told the judges it should have been a lower score I can't remember what year that was.

[CPE MT]

I'm pretty certain that Brandon at SIR put on at least one racing-only show at the end of last year. In talking with him at the time, they had a packed house that saw a great show.

[BiteMeStudios]

I'm pretty certain that Brandon at SIR put on at least one racing-only show at the end of last year. In talking with him at the time, they had a packed house that saw a great show.

A-1 Raceway in Louisiana last August...it was packed and then some, and a ton of fun to film.

[Don]

I may be missing something but I don't see anywhere in the origonal post by Ed saying he wanted to do freestyle only events. He said a freestyle champion points series and this could be done at regular shows.

As for certian tricks having a given point value would be lame and take the freedom out of freestyle. I like going out and hitting things no one has done yet or thought of.

As for the racing there is no compairson on the excitement level. the big long track you guys talk about had several slow spots where thing could not be hit agressivly. you attack things different in racing than freestyle.
Going fast is different than going hard.

If I was to guess I would say 80% of money paying fans prefer freestyle over racing and that might be low.

Don

[Punisher]

Long time listener first time caller.

Look at the arenas that Checkered Flag does. You are not going to get your big elaborate tracks inside small arenas, so get realistic people. Also you can see they are doing their sucsessful Monsters and Arenacross again in 2010, so you have to factor in the Arenacross track, which limits the racing course. So lets get off the mud bog and tractor pulling kick too.

Leave it the way it is, give points to wheelie, racing, and freestyle so everyone has to try to win in each contest. You get rid of racing you are going to have to replace it with something, like a donut contest. But once you've seen wheelies and donuts, there isn't much left to see that's "new" for freestyle.

New trucks, new obstacles and different side acts will keep the crowds happy.

[kaila martiallaw]

Ross the series your discribing sounds very similar to MOD, they paid a base pay, then bonuses for each round of racing you won (the pay to win was alot more than to show up) and then they had freestyle as kinda optional, your pay or placing was not based on it at all (in general all the trucks did it though). They had straight line drags, then they also had turning course racing then Freestyle. It really only worked at outdoor venues but I have always thought it would be cool to see CFP, MTC or anyone else with bigger outdoor shows to try that event plan. It didn't work for MOD but someone else with better venues and understanding of the industry I think could do well with it. And for that matter Freestyle could also be judged in more structured way and figure that into the final standings of the night? Drivers even having freestyle be optional still did just as well, it helps merchandise sales and most drivers I have met have trucks because they love driving them.

Kaila

[719]

I didn’t read everything, its late but I want to throw my view in the pile.

I use to be the type that went to any show in my area, but to be honest anymore if I know it is a show where the drivers won’t push their trucks I typically don’t go anymore. So, you are telling me I am going to go to a show where I know a driver will be DNF’d if he rolls it. I am not saying I want to see rollovers. I love great saves and typically the crowd goes wild for great saves. But, I want to know the drivers are going to “push” it during freestyle. Driving back and forth and around in circles is getting old. I expect it from certain trucks but not all of them. There are stars and there are fillers.

I hate it when my friend’s tell me they are taking their kid to such and such show. Because, I know they watch Speed and are going to come back to me and say that show was boring. If they ask my opinion before they go I always say such and such truck is good but don’t expect a what you see on TV.

Damon never rolled during his winning run last year but do you think he would have driven that hard if he knew he'd be DQ'd if he rolled. (That might be a good or bad example not sure)

Also, flame throws, water throwers, bla, bla are just a step backwards. Nothing serious about that.

Lastly, I don't know if it would work but someone needs to see about running trucks on a CORR/TORC/Lucas tracks. Get some serious side by side racing.

[Punisher]

Lastly, I don't know if it would work but someone needs to see about running trucks on a CORR/TORC/Lucas tracks. Get some serious side by side racing.

Two words: Blower Motor. That 3000+ foot track MTC built sucked the trucks dry on fuel as is. These trucks aren't made to run 3-4 minutes, and then turn around and do it round after round.

[TheMonsterBlogger]

Monster trucks have gained fame and fortune because of several reasons but it is apparent that today Freestyle like yesteryear when monsters crushed cars is the most crowds favorite part of the show.

Why not a SERIES that awards their Championship Points only for Freestyle?

I may be guilty of a thread high-jack here. If you re-read my original post, I addressed my thoughts on a series that awards championship points only for freestyle, arguing that I believe it's far better to have a championship that requires you to be good at both racing and freestyle.

However, being that the thread was titled "RACING OR FREESTYLE" and that Ed offered up the common argument that freestyle is the crowd's favorite part of the show, I separately offered up my opinion on that argument.

[BaptismByFire]

Not sure what my word is worth, but I side with Ross and everything he so expertly said in regards to the freestyle above racing argument.

[Jus Show N Off]

I've got 3 words: Long Jump Contest. On the surface it sounds limited to big venues and outdoor shows, but think of a long jump contest inside of a small venue... Or even just a big air contest, monster high jump perhaps? I think if you present a Freestyle only show, or Freestyle only championship that it needs to have multiple disciplines and events involved. Wheelie, Big Air (high jump or long jump) and then Freestyle. This could even have the side effect of getting the actual Freestyle to be more evenly judged on all that a truck does, rather than getting voted as winner for just going out and constantly flying it only. I guess I think of the XGames and how a skateboard or bike rider is expected to pull of skill tricks such as grinds and grabs as well as big air tricks to display their entire skillset if they expect to place well.

To keep on top and keep fans interested you have to give them something that they either haven't seen, or that they love to see. Speaking for myself only, I love big air, I happen to be of the mindset that big air is what these trucks do best. Don't get me wrong, I love everything these trucks do, but after racing is done the thing I remember is who got the biggest air of the night.

Just trying to inject some new ideas, as always thanks for everything you already do Ed. :)

[MasterofTame]

I've got 3 words: Long Jump Contest. On the surface it sounds limited to big venues and outdoor shows, but think of a long jump contest inside of a small venue... Or even just a big air contest, monster high jump perhaps? I think if you present a Freestyle only show, or Freestyle only championship that it needs to have multiple disciplines and events involved. Wheelie, Big Air (high jump or long jump) and then Freestyle. This could even have the side effect of getting the actual Freestyle to be more evenly judged on all that a truck does, rather than getting voted as winner for just going out and constantly flying it only. I guess I think of the XGames and how a skateboard or bike rider is expected to pull of skill tricks such as grinds and grabs as well as big air tricks to display their entire skillset if they expect to place well.

To keep on top and keep fans interested you have to give them something that they either haven't seen, or that they love to see. Speaking for myself only, I love big air, I happen to be of the mindset that big air is what these trucks do best. Don't get me wrong, I love everything these trucks do, but after racing is done the thing I remember is who got the biggest air of the night.

Just trying to inject some new ideas, as always thanks for everything you already do Ed. :)

The long jump/broad jump goes back to the old monster truck days when they would crush cars as an exhibition during truck pulls or mud bogs. I like it and if I am not mistaken USHRA already does the wheelie and donut competitions at the smaller arena shows, taking a cue from the Thunder Nationals.

[carcrusher]

After finally having time to read all these longer posts, I must say there's been quite a few good ideas tossed around.

Personally, I prefer a good racing track over anything. As Ross stated, the "average fan" (which also translates to the "average American") will like monster trucks for what they are, and they will eat whatever is fed to them. If you feed them garbage, they'll eat the garbage and love every bit of it (wal-mart, anyone?). That, in my opinion, is what most parts of the sport have come to in the mainstream within the past 8 or so years - stagnant garbage. Most of the shows I go to anymore I don't even really get that excited past the intermission, because racing is over and freestyle is the same thing as always. Freestyle's excitement level is not accelerating at the rate that it was, say, 5 years ago and something needs to be done.

Now, onto Ed's proposition. I've always believed that anything can be done right, and as much of a racing purist as I am, I think a structured, legitimate (as it can get anyway) freestyle competition can be a good thing for the sport, especially in the small arenas across this country. As Ross or Colby stated, as long as the rules are clearly defined to the fans, they will know what to expect and they will get good entertainment out of it.

Now, for bigger venues, the answer is simple - Rich Schaefer should somehow get a patent simply for his ideas. The '09 Charlotte course has been brought up numerous times, and I think it is a great gauge as to what can be done with monster trucks in a larger area. The racing course was as awesome as you could ask for, and the crowd went nuts numerous times throughout the racing portion of the event. Then, come freestyle time, the same obstacles are used, just hit harder and in different directions (minus a van stack and bus stack). The bottom line is, racing and freestyle obstacles don't have to be segregated, they just have to be thought out and used in a manner that will provide great entertainment for both aspects of the show.

Alright, enough of my mindless rambling - bottom line, great idea, Ed. Come back to the Pittsburgh market :-P

[EdCFP]

With my question it for sure was not intended for stadiums. The BULK of every promoter's shows are Arena's.

Where the heck do some of you think you are going to build a track where two trucks can race safe in the confines of a hockey track over the stuff mentioned here. Ross you and Colby of all should know what I am talking about.

We can either straight line race these trucks in a HOCKEY rink or we can try to stretch the show out with other facinating parts of the performance of a monster truck to the "Regular" fan that attends.

Racing is cool there is nothing like what we did in Pocatello last year.......but that is a stadium! There is the problem.

What do we all show in our commericals???
Come on think about a Monster truck commerical of TODAY not of the years with pulling or mud racing monsters.

We show em jumping, climbing buses, crushing cars, vans, all that we know that is exciting.

Racing action from arenas is not that exciting to show.....the reason is there is not much to capture in a 28.5 seconds of Tv commerical.

Colby you are a WIZARD with the video ... Try to make a spot that is all racing and let's see if you can make it as exciting as the ones we have now to some one who is watching at home.

The real truth is real racing in a HOCKEY ARENA which is 85 feet wide and 200 feet long basically is not that exciting no matter what you race over, around it has to be straight line also.

Chicago style with a truck running into a 2000 dollar dasher is not acceptable and that would be what would happen if they were RACING towards them in their turns. I know I am not taking that gamble!

So there yah go . . .maybe it is a situation that cannot be changed much. There is not much square footage in a 200x85 space when the trucks themselves take up basically 14x20 and there are two of them.

I cry UNCLE ......... enough already about the stadiums and OUTDOOR events we all know what we can do with that and those tracks are only limited by budget and not every fairgrounds or speedway shows can afford stuff like that.

See the light a second and focus on events in small arenas. Try this again ok?

Thanks for all the comments ....some are making me think and some have answered some questions that I had for sure.

Seeya,
Ed Beckley
Checkered Flag Productions

[RyanRoberts]

had a idea for a 6 truck arena bracket ..Sort of based on Mega in Sedaila, MO 08..


Round 1 - All Six Trucks Race

Round 2- The 3 Winners Plus Fast Looser from Round 1

Round 3- The 2 Loosers of Round 1 and Winners of Round 2. Basically a last chance round. See who really wants to win racing even though everybody is showing up to compete

Finals- Winners of Round 3 go at it.. If shows goes well with time also could have a 3rd/4th Place Race.

Also the perfect format i would think for an arena show. Wheelies, Time Trials, Racing, and close out with Freestyle. Basically have Wheelies to go with the freestyle and Time Trials go with the racing. On the Time Trials i'm not saying put buses or vans in it just something the drivers can turn on. Heres a little idea i had for wheelies/fs judging

Wheelies score 1-10 2 passes per set (So 5 points per)
Freestyle score 1-20 - 90 seconds or 2 minutes out there

At the end of the night combine the scores to see who is closest to the perfect 30. This could help prevent favoritism.

Just some things ive thought of..

[Punisher]

Yeah that's too confusing Roberts.

Leave it alone. No one needs to see single truck qualifying, THAT is a snooze fest. Even if the racing course is "boring" its something "different" in the show. It's the only time 2 trucks are running on the track at the same time. Everything else is just a single truck running, and it's taking away from freestyle. If you have trucks doing wheelies, donuts, and big air contest, then what is so exciting about freestyle? You've seen it all, might as well leave at intermission (less merch sales) and beat traffic.

Plus on a short course, a close racing finish can be exciting.

Want to make it "fair" use 5 judges, throw out the high and low.

Keep it simple, no one came to the monster truck show to "think" and figure out things from a technical end. This guy beat this guy, this guy got a bigger score, let's go home. Simple and happy.

[BiteMeStudios]

Colby you are a WIZARD with the video ... Try to make a spot that is all racing and let's see if you can make it as exciting as the ones we have now to some one who is watching at home.

And Ed, this is EXACTLY why my spots are about 99.9% freestyle. In a half second of footage, freestyle will rule. A wise man once told me that...any clue who THAT could be? :D

Of course, freestyle was my focus here, and I know my ideas would benefit a freestyle points series no matter where it were to be held...stadium, fairgrounds, hockey rink, backyard, broom closet...because my ideas don't focus on anything but creating a way to fairly, and as impartially as possible, judge a subjective competition in which a true points series championship for freestyle would be implemented.

Now, hypothetically, if we were talking about racing, I think Ross is dead on. I think a well done outdoor/stadium series would be just as exciting as any freestyle. But, that isn't what we are discussing here. We are discussing a points series for freestyle...one that would, by all accounts, occur on hockey rinks. One last time, I refer you all to my original post in this thread. To me, that is your answer if you want to make this legit.

[EdCFP]

I guess I rest my case.

Freestyle is where it is in today's shows in Arenas.

[skolapper]

Awesome news Never used freestyle due to the complications involved with integration with
Blender. Something like this would really make me do a lot more NPR - which is great

I really hope this gets done Best wishes to the devs
//Mathias

[InsanoRacer]

Awesome news Never used freestyle due to the complications involved with integration with
Blender. Something like this would really make me do a lot more NPR - which is great

I really hope this gets done Best wishes to the devs
//Mathias


say what?

[Randy Barton BUGZILLA MT]

The good thing about monsters is that they are limitless, people will love them doing freestlye only in smaller arenas and they will love them racing in large outdoor shows.
Everything has limits, and size (floorspace) is a big one, but fans will be fans no mater what the trucks are doing :)
Randy

[trukir2]

I much prefer shows that have racing AND freestyle as opposed to just one or the other. I went to a show for KSR in Gaithersburg (Kyle was there) that was really my first all-freestyle show in years and the only one I've ever been two with 8 trucks involved. I was disappointed, I'm not going to lie. The show was good, but here was the problem:

The year before I got a show with Chicago style racing on a challenging track, a longer show, with a better overall lineup, and freestyle after racing, for the same price, at the exact same venue.

It wasn't like it couldn't be done within constraints because it was done before.

That being said, I understand fully the constraints of a small venue and would never expect racing in a tiny arena to be as good as an outdoor track or large dome. But, if I had the choice, I'd have both.

For example, Bigfoot attended the said event in Gaithersburg, much to my delight, because I hadn't seen the truck at an event in 8 years. When I see Bigfoot, I come to see it race. I don't care to see Bigfoot freestyle like some other people do, but if I get it, its a bonus. Those trucks and drivers were built and geared to race and racing is what they do best. That's probably not a good thing to some people, but it is what it is. I left feeling like I hadn't seen what I came to see.

I hope this adds to the discussion. I don't think that freestyle should dominate a show to the determent of racing, but I don't think a show should have just racing without giving the fans something extra.

[TheMonsterBlogger]

Come on Ed, I answered your original question right up front:


The best championship format for a series like CFP is one that tests driver skill in both, awarding points for racing and freestyle. I think dropping racing from the events would make them, and the championship overall much less interesting, rather than more. I think being a champion of a series that equally rewards racing and freestyle carries a higher esteem than being a champion simply of racing or freestyle.

When I went off on a tangent, I even led off my racing vs. freestyle argument with...


Speaking more about the industry in general...

...and addressed the topic of what is appropriate based on the venue...


...That format works great for shows in general and is more appropriate for many venues...

Point being if you make the general argument "the average fan likes freestyle more than racing", I am going to argue that with all the points in my first post.


See the light a second and focus on events in small arenas. Try this again ok?

I am happy to elaborate. Your question in the original post asked what would we think about a championship that awarded points only for freestyle. So the question then is, what exactly are you proposing? Possibly one of the following?

A) Shows with wheelie, racing and freestyle and only awarding points for freestyle.

Why on earth would you only award points for freestyle only with this show format? That would essentially render the first part of the show meaningless. Special Events does this with their tour, but the other way around, only awarding points for racing. That blows my mind because guys like Koehler and Bergeron do an amazing job in freestyle and get no credit for it in the year-end title chase. Their series would be so much more interesting if they awarded points for both. Again, why make the CFP series one-dimensional when it is already multi-dimensional??

B) Shows with no racing, maybe a wheelie contest and a donut contest, and only awarding points for freestyle.

Punisher nailed this one...


Even if the racing course is "boring" its something "different" in the show. It's the only time 2 trucks are running on the track at the same time. Everything else is just a single truck running, and it's taking away from freestyle. If you have trucks doing wheelies, donuts, and big air contest, then what is so exciting about freestyle? Plus on a short course, a close racing finish can be exciting.

C) Shows with no racing and multiple rounds of freestyle.

This show format isn't best for the same reason you argue racing in a small arena is "not that exciting". With limited space, you can't bring in many obstacles, so one run through the lineup, you're going to see pretty much all there is to see. Most trucks will hold back in your first round of freestyle because they need to make sure to make the final round of freestyle. Then obstacles are going to be pretty well used up making your final round that much less interesting.

Now consider that trucks will be trying to get through multiple rounds of freestyle in up to three shows over the course of the weekend. That's pretty tough on trucks and if you only have 5-6 truck lineups, you really end up with a strong chance of losing trucks for the rest of the weekend, assuming they run 100% every time out.

So obviously, trucks are going to have to hold back to protect equipment and complete the weekend. Does anyone really want to see a laid back freestyle multiple times in one show? Unless you have Bill Payne running all six trucks, then that's exactly what you're going to get. I would much rather see trucks freestyle once at the end of the show and run full out then see a watered down performance multiple times.


The real truth is real racing in a HOCKEY ARENA which is 85 feet wide and 200 feet long basically is not that exciting no matter what you race over, around it has to be straight line also.

I just don't accept your premise that it can't be exciting. I hold up as evidence the Monster Nationals tour. Using footage from the racing part of those shows, I bet you I could make an equally exciting commercial using only racing IF you too are restricted to using only small arena freestyle footage (no Pocatello).

Anyway, I argue the answer is not to eliminate racing, but to try things to improve upon it by making it more interesting. Here's two reasonable ideas you could try:

1) Leave a short run-up to a car set, put a big Lincoln as the first car and place the finish line just past the cars. Then let em' fly. Iron-walling on concrete is fun, it's just as interesting on dirt. It also emphasizes driving skill much more than a course with a dirt roller and a ramped two car set. Do I make the first hit soft and then power over the cars? Or do I banzai it and try to fly across the finish line, possibly losing time in the air?

2) Conversely, try something new. Put a van in each lane, build a shallow dirt ramp leading up to it with no ramp on the other side, put the start line close to the ramp so they can't get a dangerous amount of speed, and put the finish line down in the area they'll be landing and let 'em fly.

I guarantee you either of those will produce a racing competition that would be preferable to a watered-down second round of freestyle.

I do realize my posts are extremely long and I do apologize for that, however here is my reason for taking this discussion so seriously. CFP is coming off a year in which they had one of the most multi-dimensional points battles ever. Every part of the show counted into the overall standings, and you had to be a well-rounded driver to win. Yes, there are ways to improve the points chase and I would be happy to discuss those, but one of them is definitely not removing racing from the events or taking away its significance by not awarding points for it.

[adamsoffroad]

All I can say is really just ask the drivers of the trucks what they want. If you ask many of monster veterans still in the sport today they are waiting for some type of real racing series to open up and if you eliminate racing I think it will diminish the sport more. At least if there are points awarded then it's more exciting also. If you eliminate points for it then it will become bland because there will be no real reason to run hard. I personally like racing better though I like freestyle too. But you don't get the adrenalin rush from anticipateing on who will cross the finish line first from freestyle. I am building a new truck that is focused more toward the racing than freestyle, but I will do whatever I need the run my truck and just hope for a place to get to race truck for recognition of it. So I say keep the racing, maybe even try running a more race emphasized show and see what the fans say and how the turnout is.

Just my thoughts as a fan and soon to be a competitor.
Adam

[Furious Rodimus]

I prefer racing over freestyle. I was a big fan of USA Motorsports/ TNN Motor Madness courses from the 97/98 seasons with the tight-turning obstacle courses and the straight ahead drag racing. It was cool to see the ability of both truck and driver in that one event.

I find freestyle's scoring is way too subjective to be legit, and i don't like how some trucks get a 'stacked' track with extra obstacles that the other trucks don't get. If the guys want to freestyle after/for fun and not part of the real competition leading to a championship.

Once they get their track layouts/timing equipment laid out racing really can be the real deal. Also get a real transparent points system that we fans can check on a weekly basis and that will be the way to go in my opinion.

[MAC]

I would like to see racing be the main part of the show with the final round race as the finale.
Show order =
Qualifying.
First round of racing. Trucks eliminated in the first round do their freestyle.
Second round of racing. Trucks eliminated freestyle. Etc.
Final round trucks freestyle before the last race.
Final round.
The show actually builds up to and ends on a climax. Because of subjectivity, eliminate a seperate freestyle championship, give freestyle points as a bonus toward the racing championship, 5 for participation/filling the clock and 5 more for the crowd's favorite freestyler. Design the track so it does not need to be changed for the two different competitions (I use this word loosely for freestyle). The championship would be weighted towards racing, but freestyle can make a difference. I prefer racing. I don't hate freestyle. I liked seeing Dennis Anderson drive like he was having a siezure with his right foot stuck to the floor. Freestyle is a good SHOW when good drivers do it. I think it should be deemphasized as a COMPETITION.

[chad4208]

I would like to see racing be the main part of the show with the final round race as the finale.
Show order =
Qualifying.
First round of racing. Trucks eliminated in the first round do their freestyle.
Second round of racing. Trucks eliminated freestyle. Etc.
Final round trucks freestyle before the last race.
Final round.
The show actually builds up to and ends on a climax. Because of subjectivity, eliminate a seperate freestyle championship, give freestyle points as a bonus toward the racing championship, 5 for participation/filling the clock and 5 more for the crowd's favorite freestyler. Design the track so it does not need to be changed for the two different competitions (I use this word loosely for freestyle). The championship would be weighted towards racing, but freestyle can make a difference. I prefer racing. I don't hate freestyle. I liked seeing Dennis Anderson drive like he was having a siezure with his right foot stuck to the floor. Freestyle is a good SHOW when good drivers do it. I think it should be deemphasized as a COMPETITION.


isnt that the formatthey used in 97/98 or whatever?

seizure with his right foot.... can i put that in my sig?
anyway....did i post in thsi therad already? i dont remember but I like both. however Good racing can be put on anywhere with any trucks. good fs takes a little extra but i couldnt imagine going to a show without freestyle anymore, and I dont like all fs shows so....

[MAC]

Cool! Only a couple posts and I am already quoted. Go for it.

[Pullin_and_Monsters]

As a fan, I want racing to be the priority. I think the wild racing courses with bus stacks and the like are good on occasion, but simpler courses in my mind are the best thing. As for freestyle, if you want to make it legitimate, get a panel of judges that score everything from week to week. As well set up a system of rules that give points for standard moves, and then its up to the judges to award points for those moves which are above and beyond things that show truck control. Rolls, and complete destruction of the truck is not what i want to see, but if it rolls, take it into consideration in the score, like the time left in the run or the impact of the wreck. It can not be about who completely destroys the truck in the time limit.

[trukir2]

I honestly think it would be most beneficial to ask the fans themselves, and that would mean those that aren't on this board. No offense, because hey, I'm here, too, but I just get this feeling that the "common" fans of monster trucks appreciate racing a lot more than we think. I think we need to find out for sure. Ed, I think it would be worthwhile to you to do a little polling at your events and find out what people have a desire to see. Maybe you can put a survey you created on your website or hand out paper versions at your events with 5 or so questions that gauge people's interest in certain parts of the show. Set up a couple booths with boxes to put them in and maybe even offer incentives to participate, such a free, inexpensive swag like key chains or something and have people's participation in the survey automatically enter them to win some prize. You have to be careful with the questions, however, because asking a question like "do you prefer freestyle over racing" could be leading.

Just something to think about.