Front tires mounted backwards?

BiteMeStudios

Well-Known Member
On the blog, there is a picture of Dan Runte in Bigfoot 16 with the front tires mounted backwards. I am assuming there is a reason he runs that setup on a concrete floor, but was hoping someone might be able to explain the benefits of this. Thanks!
 

Jason Twite

Freelancer
That's my understanding as well. It also helps sharpen the edge of the tread as it contacts against the concrete. I'll have to look at some photos when I get on my home computer, but I think I have a shot of Predator on dirt with backwards tread. I think that would be a loss of traction.
 

FlyinBryan

Well-Known Member
Exactly right, better total contact patch when you mount the left on the right, and the right on the left. You'll notice that Jim Jack mounted all 4 of his "backwards" at the show as well.
 

BiteMeStudios

Well-Known Member
And that is for concrete only, correct? Now, My question would be this...if contact is the concern, wouldn't the uncut turf tires be the best thing to use? I mean, that would create even more "rubber to the road" as I see it. Unless we are talking about something completely different.
 

Jason Twite

Freelancer
This is my half-logic speculation going on here, but might actually be the answer.

A "bald" or light treaded turf tire on concrete is going to result in less traction that a normal positioned deep-cut tire. Turf tires are for exactly that: turf. When sliding or play in the front wheels will help such as in dusty turning tracks. Get a turf tire wet on concrete and you might as well be on ice.

The cut tires allow for intermittent contact to the ground and the edge delivers a pulling motion to the ground which leads to movement. Even though they don't actually dig into the concrete, they still provide and stiffer object to push off of than a rounded one.

Sounds good, right :) But I could be way off.
 

BiteMeStudios

Well-Known Member
The devil's advocate in me then replies with this...why are tires used for NASCAR/Indy/etc. slicks? On wet tracks, they used grooved tires, but on a dry track, they use slicks. I haven't seen too many shows where the promoter sprays water on the concrete that would make wet concrete a concern.
 

MonsterStyleCom

Well-Known Member
You would think a turf tire would stop quicker if they were looking at slowing down quicker, but when you hit the brakes, I assume, just like a regular tire, it would lock up and slide on the coke syrup, especially if that stuff hasn't set all the way or is too slick (which happens).

Also, most teams do not know what the track setup will be one weekend to the next, and some never stop at the shop to swap out tires as most teams only carry 4 (or 8 if a 2 truck team). I know Larry Swim only carries 4 tires and when one was shredded a few weeks ago, Mike with Old Glory hooked him up with another tire to compete the next day. Mike's shop was a few miles away.
 

isonater911

Well-Known Member
The devil's advocate in me then replies with this...why are tires used for NASCAR/Indy/etc. slicks? On wet tracks, they used grooved tires, but on a dry track, they use slicks. I haven't seen too many shows where the promoter sprays water on the concrete that would make wet concrete a concern.
yea the NASCAR/INDY/ect.are slicks Colby. But they are slick as heck, until they get heat in them and the rubber heats up enough to make 'em sticky...I just do not see a monster trucks tires becoming sticky..lol, and the only times I have been to a show were the concrete may be wet is from a mud pit. but here latley every MT show I have gone too, they spray down some Coke syrup down prior to the event to make the floor sticky.
 

BiteMeStudios

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I have seen coke syrup many times. But, when the conversation turned to more surface area on the floor, it only made sense that an uncut turf tire would rule that. As soon as some rubber gets laid down on the syrup, it always seems very slick out there. Maybe a driver could clear this up for us?
 

FlyinBryan

Well-Known Member
Jason pretty much explained it the best it can be explained. I guess the only other way to look at it is to look at the difference in shows. On dirt, you mount the tires conventionally so that the truck grabs the dirt, and throws it up and away to propel forward. With the tread pattern reversed, you would pull the dirt inward and slow forward progress.

On a concrete floor, you're dealing with "energy" instead of dirt. You don't want to mount the tires conventionally because you'll grab the "energy" and propel it away from the truck, you want to keep all the energy you can within the tires to move it forward when traction is limited.

As a monster tire wears, it makes the contact patch smaller. You flip that tire 180, and you've also 180'd the wear pattern, making it larger. Again, in dirt you have more grip than you can shake a stick at, so it doesn't matter, mount them conventionally.

A truck with bald tires has nothing to grab, so it acts like a "slick" race tire would on a rainy track. Shaved tires are nice in dirt when you have an over abundance of grip, you want to lessen the rotational mass by shaving the weight. But when you don't have that over abundance of grip, it comes down to who can put the most rubber to the road, and do it the most effectively, and that will propel that truck forward.


I don't know if that made sense or not, it was more-or-less a brain spew from some internet dork who doesn't know much about anything :cool:
 

FlyinBryan

Well-Known Member
And as far as coke syrup goes, its a very finekey process to get it right. You have to have just the right amount laid down at just the right time, with just the right conditions. I've seen people throw down not enough and have it be not effective. I've seen people throw it down too soon and it dried up and it was not effective. More often than not I've seen people put it down too much and/or put it down too late, it never dries, and then its a real nightmare.

Then there is the fact that I believe you want to use non-carbonated Coke, not pre-carbonated, not diet coke, not Fanta :cool:

Not to bash any other promoter, but I would turn to George's Monster Nationals crew and the Monster Jam T-Nats crew for the exact right way to do it, I don't see many concrete shows by those promoters being hampered by improper coke syrup use.
 

Brandon Clark

Benchracer Extraordinaire
I've been on the floor at "coke-syrup" shows, and that stuff is sticky as all get out!

I can remember way back to the TNN Motor Madness 1999 season, where they had Jack Koberna on there with his old 2wd Cyborg, and he used to mount his front tires backwards. In his short interview, the only reasoning he gave to it was with the different cleat direction, the dirt grabbed the tire, instead of the tire grabbing the dirt.

It makes sense to me, especially what Twite said, but keep in mind that Cyborg was 2wd too.
 

tromoly

Well-Known Member
On wet tracks, they used grooved tires, but on a dry track, they use slicks.
If you look at a Formula 1 rain tire, they use the same Chevron patter that 66-inch terra tires use; the reason for it is that they want to push the water to the outside edge of the tire to remove it from the contact patch. Same thing with a terra tire, the lugs are shaped to move loose dirt out of the way to provide solid traction, as stated above (I can't see who it was, sorry).
 

MadRat

Well-Known Member
Max D in Arnhem/Holland

Saturday & Sunday shows

Only the front-right tire (SIR) was mounted backwards...... :confused:

















 

myspace_monsters

Well-Known Member
Jason summed it up pretty good. I was talking with Runte at Indy about tires. They had two turfs they tried on friday. He said they took them off because they were spinning on the asphalt rather than hooking up. The dust and rocks that were on the line were spinning the tire. Dust is the big prob with concrete show. Even without dirt ramps, the general amout of dust at some shows is terrible. Flint MI is sickening when it comes to dust. Second to Fort Wayne IN.

The wet tires have tread to channel the water out from under the tire, and the tread does the gripping. The contact patch is smaller than a slick, but keep in mind the speeds are slower due to the slick conditions.

Turfs do have a little tread pattern, but they will want to hop and spin. Maybe if the coke was perfect the turf would be best.

A slick is great for racing for several reasons. They are on a rougher surface like asphalt for the most part. Plus when they heat up they become sticky. Put your hand on a slick before and after a 20 lap race and see how much of a difference there is. Concrete floors can vary in traction. Some concrete floors are super smooth and polished. Some are more of a gritty type of concrete. With slicks on concrete, you generally have a helper when it comest to traction. You have mechanical grip. You have banking. Like bristol for example. A half mile track. They can't run the same speeds as Martinsville in the corners because of banking. Each are half a mile, with concrete corners. But the banking is the key. Now when was the last time we saw banking at a concrete show?

Generally we only see the front tires mounted backwards. So I would guess that a knobby tire like Bigfoot runs would be the ideal middle ground in tire selection. The back tires have more traction in general due to weight transfer, so they are left alone. I would guess that a set of four turfs would negatively effect the truck, bacuse they don't seem to be as ridgind as a lugged tire. I would think they would flex more, wanting to bounce more than anything. Think of the landings of Bearfoot racer back in the day (on a wensday) that truck bounced half the height of the jump, even on dirt over concrete.

Wow that was longer than I intended. I think I covered everything.:D
 

BiteMeStudios

Well-Known Member
Jason summed it up pretty good. I was talking with Runte at Indy about tires. They had two turfs they tried on friday. He said they took them off because they were spinning on the asphalt rather than hooking up. The dust and rocks that were on the line were spinning the tire. Dust is the big prob with concrete show. Even without dirt ramps, the general amout of dust at some shows is terrible. Flint MI is sickening when it comes to dust. Second to Fort Wayne IN.

The wet tires have tread to channel the water out from under the tire, and the tread does the gripping. The contact patch is smaller than a slick, but keep in mind the speeds are slower due to the slick conditions.

Turfs do have a little tread pattern, but they will want to hop and spin. Maybe if the coke was perfect the turf would be best.

A slick is great for racing for several reasons. They are on a rougher surface like asphalt for the most part. Plus when they heat up they become sticky. Put your hand on a slick before and after a 20 lap race and see how much of a difference there is. Concrete floors can vary in traction. Some concrete floors are super smooth and polished. Some are more of a gritty type of concrete. With slicks on concrete, you generally have a helper when it comest to traction. You have mechanical grip. You have banking. Like bristol for example. A half mile track. They can't run the same speeds as Martinsville in the corners because of banking. Each are half a mile, with concrete corners. But the banking is the key. Now when was the last time we saw banking at a concrete show?

Generally we only see the front tires mounted backwards. So I would guess that a knobby tire like Bigfoot runs would be the ideal middle ground in tire selection. The back tires have more traction in general due to weight transfer, so they are left alone. I would guess that a set of four turfs would negatively effect the truck, bacuse they don't seem to be as ridgind as a lugged tire. I would think they would flex more, wanting to bounce more than anything. Think of the landings of Bearfoot racer back in the day (on a wensday) that truck bounced half the height of the jump, even on dirt over concrete.

Wow that was longer than I intended. I think I covered everything.:D
Runte told us that in Indy (about his turf tires), and that made perfect sense for that track. There was a lot of dust and loose material on the asphalt outdoors at that event. Most indoor, cement floor arena shows do not have that dust/rock problem. It has been proven that the turf tires bounce more, and that bouncing when trying to stop in a short distance is a bad thing. I can even see why regular terras might help with stopping indoors, due to the fact that the lugs would provide a solid surface (akin to a wall) for the inertia and friction to push back against. Now, what about forward thrust? Well...

Someone had mentioned the inward/backward energy transfer provided by the reversed lugs outer most and forward most edge catching first, then transferring that energy inward and backward. Because it is friction, not lugs digging into the dirt, that is providing forward motion on a smooth cement floor. That makes the most sense from a physics standpoint to me. If you are transferring the friction inward rather than out and way from the tire, you are going to maintain a constant flow of that energy due to the reversed lug pattern. If this hold consistent across the board, then that might explain why Jim Jack mounted all four in reverse. In fact, I just looked back over some of my footage from another indoor, concrete AMP event last year, and Jim Jack had the same set up. For comparison, Keith Sturgeon, then in Snakebite (14), had his rear tires reversed. Fellow Bigfoot driver Rick Long, at the same event, went with a normal set up. But wait...Rick won racing...

So, who the **** knows?
 
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